Talk:Tag:memorial=stolperstein

memorial=stolperstein or memorial:type=stolperstein

Notification @The RedBurn:, @Chrabros:, @Geozeisig:, @Dcapillae:

This page indicates « This tag is mainly used in Germany but disputed, prefer memorial=stolperstein instead. » but where is the dispute? can someone add a link to the relevent discussions?

Moreover, according to taginfo, right now, there is 19 344 nodes with memorial:type=stolperstein and only 72 with memorial=stolperstein. So it may seems that memorial:type=stolperstein is the main tag and memorial=stolperstein is the alternative…

Cdlt, VIGNERON (talk) 08:51, 1 December 2017 (UTC)

Hi, @VIGNERON:! I haven't got any additional information. I only translated the English version of this page into Spanish. I'm sorry, I don't know anything about this dispute. --Daniel Capilla (talk) 21:15, 4 December 2017 (UTC)

Misuse of name=*

name=* should be reserved to the name given to the tagged object itself. Similar to person:date_of_birth=* and person:date_of_death=*, I suggest to instead use person:name=* to indicate the name of the remembered person. Teuxe (talk) 16:14, 11 November 2024 (UTC)

Can you add the link where you had a previous discussion about changes of all these memorial pages? If we didn't have a discussion yet, I would revert your changes until I can read some other mapper's opinion about this. I understand your rationale, but stolpersteins, busts and statues always commemorate a single person, and you basically recommend to leave the name=* tag empty. It would make the life of every mapper and renderer much more complex, we would have to explain it to every new mapper that you have to tag these 3 kinds of memorials differently. --Infeeeee (talk) 12:01, 12 November 2024 (UTC)

As there is no reply from Teuxe, I revert their changes until further discussion --Infeeeee (talk)

@Teuxe and Infeeeee: aa bit late but I agree that person:name=* would be better for the name of the person. First it's consistent with the other fields on the same object. Then it's consistent with name=* (which is the name of the object, the stone in this case ; not the name of the person), if we use name=* then the value should be "stolperstein dedicated to John Smith" not "John Smith" (which is consistent to what is done for busts and statues AFAIK). Cheers, VIGNERON (talk) 13:31, 25 May 2025 (UTC)

Following your recommendation all bus stops should be named like "Bus stop dedicated to XY street" and the name of the bust stop should be stored in street:name or something. Are bus stops misusing the name tag?
I don't know what do you mean about statue and bust names, there the subject: prefix is used for some reason not even the person: as here. I don't see anything about this in the wiki, as I see currently all of them use similar tagging. Please link to this name change that happened to other memorials.
I'm not against duplicating the name in the person:name key, e.g. it can be useful if there is a typo on the stolperstein and the name=* should contain the name as written for easier verifiability, and the person:name with the correct spelling. --Infeeeee (talk) 11:22, 26 May 2025 (UTC)

@Infeeeee: absolutely not, bus stops do have a name (it's usually written on it). Stolpersteine (and most memorials) don't. When one need to talk about a Stolperstein, they use a description including the name of the person it commemorates (or the location, or whatever... like "stolperstein dedicated to John Smith" or "stolperstein of/for John Smith"), which is not it's name of the stone.

Please have a look at name=* (including but not limited to "most prominent name on a sign posted on the feature itself" and the section "When not to use").

It's not about duplication, it's putting the right value in the right place. Right now, the name of the person is used as the name of the object which is wrong. For the distinction between the name as written and the name with correct spelling, there is already inscription=* for that purpose.

Cheers, VIGNERON (talk) 11:53, 26 May 2025 (UTC)

It sounds like you haven't seen a stolperstein yet? I know they are rare in France. They contain only text, nothing else, what do you mean "it's not written on them". If you understand the language used, it's clear that it's the name of a person, but let's see a stolperstein I surveyed yesterday, here is a photo of it on wikimedia: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:PetschauerFotoThalerTamas.jpg Its inscription is in Hungarian, so I guess you won't really understand what's written on it: If you don't understand the text, you just see that one line of the inscription is bigger than the others, so I don't really see how it's different from a bus stop which has a big name plate.
I've read the name pages multiple times on this wiki and I still haven't found a passage which forbids this usage. "most prominent name on a sign posted on the feature itself": this is exactly the reason the usage of the name tag is acceptable for memorials, because it's prominent, written with a bigger font on stolpersteins.
On the inscription tag I like to put the text as-is, and on stolpersteins it's always uppercase, and inscription=* should contain the full text, not just the name of the person. We already have duplicated data as person:date_of_death=* and person:date_of_birth=* also can be read from the inscription, so I don't see why it would be a problem just duplicating the name in person:name. --Infeeeee (talk) 13:39, 26 May 2025 (UTC)

@Infeeeee: you are confusing the inscription and the name. The bigger line is the name of the person, not the name of the stone. Again, it's an inscription not a "sign posted on the feature itself". It's not about duplication, the question is "Misuse of name=*". I'll raise the question on name=*. Cheers, VIGNERON (talk) 14:05, 26 May 2025 (UTC)

And the name of the memorial. Like the XY street is the name of the bust stop AND the street. Why is it such an unbelievable concept that 2 things can have the same name. I'm not confusing anything.--Infeeeee (talk) 14:37, 26 May 2025 (UTC)

@Infeeeee: do you have anything to confirm it's the name of the memorial? And even so, if it's the name of the memorial, the page should says "name of the memorial" not "name of the person". Yes, several things can have the same name (there is 55 500 "Hauptstraße" and 44 182 "Main Street" https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/name#values and bus stops sometimes do have the same name as the streets), it's not the case here. Cheers, VIGNERON (talk) 15:20, 26 May 2025 (UTC)

Yes, you can see it on all stolpersteins, it's written on them, isn't it enough? Wiki is correct as the name of the person should be the name of the stolperstein, with some exceptions, e.g. a typo.
We are debating about semantics, if you want to change current tagging standard, please open a proposal to deprecate name=* on stolpersteins and maybe on memorial=bust and memorial=statue, as they follow similar tagging practices --Infeeeee (talk) 18:02, 26 May 2025 (UTC)

@Infeeeee: to me it's seems very far from enough ; it's not what is done for other memorials, it's not what name is meant to be.

We don't really want to deprecate name (some stones may have a real proper name), we want the name of the person to be tagged as the name of the person.

Where do you see on memorial=bust, memorial=statue, memorial=war_memorial or memorial=plaque (and so on) that the name of the subject should be use as name of the object? memorial=stolperstein is the one who is inconsistent with the usual common practices. Should I really make a proposal Proposal:Name to say that the existing key should be used as intended and the Stolpersteine are not an exception?

Cheers, VIGNERON (talk) 18:36, 26 May 2025 (UTC)

This "problem" only affects memorial types which always commemorate a single person. memorial=stolperstein and memorial=bust by definition will always related to one person, memorial=statue usually also depicts a single person, but not always, so it's just partially related. The other war memorials, and plaques can have wildly different topics, so it's not really affected by this. I see on the page of bust they conveniently didn't define what the name=* should be, but if you just randomly check on some busts on the map, you will see that most mappers simply add the name of the person depicted on the bust to name=*. Another similar, "misuse" is common with historic=tomb. Again, it's not documented in the wiki, but if you check some usage, you will see mappers don't use buried:name=* there, but simply add the name of the buried person to name=*.
Your proposal should be something like this: "Deprecate name on memorials and tombs which commemorate a single person. Instead use person:name=* on stolpersteins, buried:name=* on tombs and subject:name=* on other memorials" As I see this is what you really want. Or your problem is simply it shouldn't be documented here, and we should just delete the definition on name=* on this page as on the bust and tomb pages? --Infeeeee (talk) 19:19, 26 May 2025 (UTC)