zluuzki's Comments
| Changeset | When | Comment |
|---|---|---|
| 121735206 | over 3 years ago | Added. |
| 121735206 | over 3 years ago | The source is the Texas RRC Website - public domain data (https://mft.rrc.texas.gov/link/d4eda8c4-9ff0-43b7-8f19-da0a57f10fd2). Everything manually reviewed - and I will also add further detail by adding substations/wellsites/valves/etc later (and did that already on large parts of southern tx). |
| 124341887 | over 3 years ago | Restored some. |
| 124201094 | over 3 years ago | railway=abandoned means that a railroad used to be there and that this is still visible. Both conditions apply, so i'll restore it. |
| 123975063 | over 3 years ago | Uhm, they exist?!? |
| 123731286 | over 3 years ago | Please note that "railway=abandoned" means that a RR was once there and there are remaining traces (=it is visible that a RR used to be there). It does not mean that there are disused tracks. There are obvious traces, so this was correctly mapped. Before you delete things make you sure that you really understand the meaning of the tags you're deleting. (by reading the wiki). |
| 123738022 | over 3 years ago | Sure they don't exist? They were added very recently and there is recent construction. Best to ask the one who added the roads. |
| 123215313 | over 3 years ago | "If you disagree with the guidelines, then I suggest you get those guidelines changed" - If it's only my time .....
"Your argument [s] doesn't convince me." - Why not, exactly? Would be intresting. I also wrote why I am not convinced by your arguments. |
| 123215313 | over 3 years ago | You can't compare 50 year old RRs with 50 year old buildings, borders or even landuse. The point about RRs is to form a network - current and former ones. Forming an network is impossible and unnessescary with your examples (because they're usually independent from each other) and pretty much everything else (except roads, but i think abandoned roads are generally very rare). Most abandoned railways are still visible in some way, so they can be mapped with railway=abandoned. It is a good possibility to add the remaining <10% without traces to have a very good dataset on old RR routes, which dosen't exist elsewhere (except on OSM). And that is a kind of data in which a lot of people are intrested in - thats also why OSM has so much of those RRs mapped. They don't come from one or three mappers, they come from 100s of mappers. "There is no "out of principle", it is all in accordance to the guidelines." - Then i change my wording to "out of guideline", which is basically the same, but sounds dumb. If i present you a lot of reasons why i think the mapping makes sense, and pretty much all you can tell me is "the guideline! the guideline!" then something is wrong with that guideline. Stop telling me about "tagging for renderer" if you don't even understand it. None of the abandoned rails I add are "incorrect information" or even "fantasy mapping" if they're correctly tagged. That I want to have them shown on ORM does NOT mean tagging for the renderer. I guess 80% of mappers are motivated by the fact that their work is shown somewhere. I certainly would not have mapped 20k miles power line in GA and SC in such detail if they were not rendered on openinframap or elsewhere. "This isn't just "a single line", these are many lines that are go through people's bedrooms, are snapped to roadways (incorrectly), and otherwise just do not exist anymore."
Also, i had 4 more arguments where no one bothered to reply yet. |
| 123434924 | over 3 years ago | Yes, my data. I mapped most of the stuff which i restored here & invested many, many hours of work. E.g. relation relation/14022349 took at least 3+ hours and now you cutted it into tons of small pieces which makes it into ... data trash. Well, at least you didn't delete it entirely. But why didn't you tag the now still deleted sections as razed? This would be the perfect way to preserve the relation and the data about the old RR itself. Also my mistake to use too much rw=abandoned there and i will use less of that in favor of razed, but still, i don't think deletion is the way to do it here. Sorry for the wall of text, but sometimes it is needed so you can understand my point of view. |
| 123434924 | over 3 years ago | railway=abandoned means "it is in some way visible that an RR used to be there". I explained that to you, so you know it. (Let alone that that's in the wiki (#Actual use: "The Wiki-Definition: Is a key to map former railways, where the rails have been removed but the route is still visible in some way."), and you are here since 2017 and expected to read the page in detail if you're doing such mass deletions).
Also, how do you have the mapping experience needed to conduct such mass deletions? If I check your editing stats at https://hdyc.neis-one.org/?CurlingMan13, you have edited 50 railway nodes and 300 ways, which is nothing (most of the ways must be from the recent deletion spree anyway). What this tells me is that you have no experience in rail mapping. And without such experience, you might not be able to see traces or you aren't aware of US-local mapping rules. And you shouldn't conduct any mass edits related to railways, especially not mass deletions.
Why map them? My arguments, copied from another discussion:
Don't me come with DWG. The choice you have is to just let me do my thing and you continue closing notes which was way more helpful to the data quality than going from city to city and mass deleting valid data.
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| 123215313 | over 3 years ago | Your arguments & what could be interpreted as argument:
Of course you're supposed to accept my reasons. And you're supposing that I accept your reasons, that's how a discussion works. Your arguments just don't convince me at all. My arguments:
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| 123425446 | over 3 years ago | Most exist with obvious traces, reverted.
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| 123215313 | over 3 years ago | I told you why i want to map them here and and why it is the best way. "My main question:
I want to have good data on the subject, and you don't. Ok. But if you expect me to basically redo the complete old rail mapping on OHM from scratch if i want good data, then I have the right to expect a good reason for why I should do that.
No, im not accepting this. I want real reasons, good reasons why I should invest MY time for this. Your feelings being hurt by a few railway=razed ways is NOT a good reason. |
| 123215313 | over 3 years ago | How many times do I have to say that "razed" objects have no traces until you understand? I never said "razed" tracks have traces. Only "abandoned" have (if they're correctly tagged).
All you're saying is "Uhh it violates my mapping principles because it is not visible on the ground, we should delete it". If you have no other reasons to delete, that is just as dumb as if i would say "Uhh we should delete everything in New Jersey because i don't like the state". |
| 123215313 | over 3 years ago | "You are insisting on mapping features THAT DO NOT EXIST IN THE REAL WORLD." - YES I DO! WHAT'S THE PROBLEM? "In this changeset you created many railroad tracks that DO NOT EXIST at all!" - I guess you just don't want to understand. NONE of the re-added tracks here exists 'as track'. 90% of them are railway=abandoned, which implies existing traces (traces ≠ tracks) and are thus completely fine to be mapped, and the other 10% are railway=razed, which were removed entirely (on the ground). And you have still failed to provide ONE SINGLE good reason why those 10% should be deleted. "Out of principle" ain't a reason for me. "In this changeset you created many railroad tracks that DO NOT EXIST" -
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| 123215313 | over 3 years ago | "why don't we map every single building" - Because you can't compare this. Abandoned railroads have with at least 90% probability traces, which are mappable. So it makes sense to add the remaining 10% to have a !very! good dataset regarding old routes.
"If you want map features from the past, that's what OHM is for." - OHM in its current form is nonsense and unusable. I could write a long story with many arguments now, but to make it short: My two main problems: You can't move things from OSM to OHM. It's literally illegal, different licences. But we have the data here. In addition, you often need the data of the old routes in connection with the current ones. They are also here, and properly merging that data type from two seperate databases is very hard.
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| 123215313 | over 3 years ago | If I and the other people who map them would use railway=rail for non-existing railroads, then it would be incorrect information. But we use railway=abandoned/razed and both tags mean that the RR does no longer exist. Read the definitions at osm.wiki/Demolished_Railway#Actual_use
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| 123215313 | over 3 years ago | "Tagging for the render" means adding INCORRECT data to draw a certain render result on the map. Those railway=abandoned/razed ways are NOT incorrect information. "because you are creating an invalid data model with features that do no represent the real world"
"10% error rate" - You're acting like we're talking about the distinction of active/removed rail. No, it is the distinction of removed rail - whether it has traces or not. When most of that rail got mapped, railway=razed didn't really exist, so people used =abandoned. Thats why the tagging is sometimes not perfect. |
| 123215313 | over 3 years ago | 80% of your examples are already tagged railway=razed, which means that they are removed without traces.
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