Talk:Frontage road
frontage_road=* is not being used for the same purpose as side_road=*, even though both are named similarly in English. The former tag is for frontage roads, while the latter is confusingly for frontage lanes. If there is a desire to rationalize these keys, there should be a discussion about it and an effort to retag existing ways. One or both keys is currently being used by routing engines to avoid frontage lanes while not avoiding frontage roads. See also the discussion at [1]. – Minh Nguyễn 💬 20:08, 4 March 2023 (UTC)
It would be nice to not revert a complete change (which, in this case, contained also improvements to the used image and links) without discussion if you want to change just one aspect. 😉 Sommerluk (talk) 08:10, 23 March 2023 (UTC)
I've reverted your commit, but added manually added again the remark about side roads that you had restored. I think, however, if this text will stay on the wiki page, there should be a clear description what's the difference between frontage lane and frontage road. And this shouldn't be a specific description of the situation in Texas or the US. OSM has world-wide coverage, after all. Sommerluk (talk) 08:18, 23 March 2023 (UTC)
- @Sommerluk: Sorry for catching you off-guard. Your earlier version had confused some other mappers, as seen in the forum thread above and in Slack. I agree that the tagging guidance should not be specific to Texas or the U.S. However, it is true that, historically,
frontage_road=yesoriginated in Texas, while Key:side_road originated in Russia and Belarus. Both phenomena commonly occur in the U.S., and the distinction matters greatly to routers. However, frontage roads are common in one part of the U.S., while frontage lanes are common in other parts. American mappers who were unaware of both phenomena have frequently rewritten Key:side_road without first comprehending its contents. Changing the definition of these tags is bound to cause confusion, because these tags are both widespread in the database and also being relied upon by routers. At first, your edits appeared to me to be similarly misinformed, but I'm glad that it was just a misunderstanding on my part. – Minh Nguyễn 💬 18:26, 25 March 2023 (UTC)- I want to note that the term "frontage road" has once been used by FHWA to label separated frontage lanes/roadway on arterial road / with signalized intersection https://www.fhwa.dot.gov/publications/research/safety/14057/images/image006.png https://www.fhwa.dot.gov/publications/research/safety/14057/001.cfm
"Frontage lanes" may also refer to the number of "frontage road" lanes.
"Roads" and "lanes" are often used interchangeably. Cf "collector-distrubutor roads" and "collector-distrubutor lanes".
--- Kovposch (talk) 10:21, 28 June 2023 (UTC) - But it seems
side_road=doubleis closely related tofrontage_road=*? Kovposch (talk) 11:29, 28 June 2023 (UTC)
- I want to note that the term "frontage road" has once been used by FHWA to label separated frontage lanes/roadway on arterial road / with signalized intersection https://www.fhwa.dot.gov/publications/research/safety/14057/images/image006.png https://www.fhwa.dot.gov/publications/research/safety/14057/001.cfm
- Frontage road and side road are absolutely not the same thing in standard English. Side road refers to a minor road which meets a main road at a junction and the main road has priority over the side road. On the other hand frontage road is an American synonym for a type of service road in UK English. However the definition of service road in UK English is wider than the definition of frontage road in American English. Service roads in UK English can be frontage roads in American English, or alleys at the back of houses that can be driven down to access driveways or roads to access car parks etc, etc.
- Now given the definition of frontage road, technically speaking frontage roads are a subset of side roads because frontage roads are minor roads that meet major roads at a junction where the major road has priority. However in UK English they are also a subset of service roads as well. So the American term frontage road seems to be the best to use for tagging of these things as it appears to be unambiguous and refer to roads that are the intersection of the set of side roads and the set of service roads and run in between the main road and the front border of the properties they serve. Davidpnewton (talk) 20:12, 8 March 2025 (UTC)
- Yes, I do agree with this. Unfortunately this is not how it's being used now.
side_road=*is being used for frontage roadways.frontage_road=*is for a different road in parallel not considered part of another road (freeway).
I mentionedside_road=doubleas they are documented for two-way. They aren't part of the same road, meaningside_road=*has an overlap withfrontage_road=*, contrary to the above discussion.
—— Kovposch (talk) 06:51, 9 March 2025 (UTC)
- Yes, I do agree with this. Unfortunately this is not how it's being used now.
- Now given the definition of frontage road, technically speaking frontage roads are a subset of side roads because frontage roads are minor roads that meet major roads at a junction where the major road has priority. However in UK English they are also a subset of service roads as well. So the American term frontage road seems to be the best to use for tagging of these things as it appears to be unambiguous and refer to roads that are the intersection of the set of side roads and the set of service roads and run in between the main road and the front border of the properties they serve. Davidpnewton (talk) 20:12, 8 March 2025 (UTC)