User talk:HaPe-CZ

Data items

Hi, HaPe-CZ! That reason for Your edit at https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Item:Q349&curid=206018&diff=2856561&oldid=2856556? Description seems to be correct. Something B (talk) 07:57, 22 May 2025 (UTC)

@Something B ... The description is not correct, an incorrect formula about the equipment is used. Specifically, ""fyzickou infraštruktúrou" / physical infrastructure" is completely inappropriate, misleading and confusing in Slavic languages. For a correct translation it is sufficient to enter the English description into the deepl.com translator (translate to Cs). There is no need to invent and create different item descriptions. Is that an intelligible explanation? --HaPe-CZ (talk) 08:17, 22 May 2025 (UTC)

Sample in Sk language: (translate to Sk) --HaPe-CZ (talk) 08:24, 22 May 2025 (UTC)

Any correct sentence in in language A can be translated to language B, sometimes lossy, but more or less correct. Exceptions is dead or constructed languages without corresponding words. Of course, any modern national language isn't this case. Something B (talk) 09:09, 22 May 2025 (UTC)

@Something B ... Yes, loss of information can occur, or inaccuracies in translation can occur. The original English sentence is quite simple. But is there a word for "physical infrastructure" in it? That is completely incorrectly inserted into the translation. --HaPe-CZ (talk) 09:15, 22 May 2025 (UTC)

I think that literal translation is correct in this case. "Infrastruktura fizyczna", "фізична інфраструктура", "физическая инфраструктура" is intelligible for me (I know some Slavic languages ​​a little). Something B (talk) 09:34, 22 May 2025 (UTC)

@Something B ...This is not about how to spell it in Polish, Ukrainian, Russian, Bulgarian, etc. It's that it doesn't belong in the text description at all. In this description, it's nonsensical and illogical context, incorrect meaning. In the original description (En) there is no physical infrastructure and the real object logically does not have it either. --HaPe-CZ (talk) 09:43, 22 May 2025 (UTC)

This topic about translations? Or about English description? If English description is incorrect, fix it first. Something B (talk) 09:50, 22 May 2025 (UTC)

@Something B ... The English description is correct. But the translation into Slovak is wrong. That's what's been going on all along!!! --HaPe-CZ (talk) 09:53, 22 May 2025 (UTC)

Description on data item and wiki page should align

Hi! It would be great if you could take into account that the description on the data item should be the same as the one on the wiki page of the key or tag, when changing descriptions, e.g. in English or German, e.g. on Item:Q6997. --Chris2map (talk) 13:10, 17 March 2025 (UTC)

• Hi, I understand the requirement but in our language it would be nonsense. "Overhead line" is not used in our country, it would be an incorrect description. --HaPe-CZ (talk) 13:16, 17 March 2025 (UTC)
• And see ... https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q110701 (Slovak) --HaPe-CZ (talk) 13:44, 17 March 2025 (UTC)

You misunderstood me, or I expressed myself poorly. Of course, the description can be different in different languages. I meant something else: In one language, the description text should be exactly identical between the entry in the data item and the entry on the corresponding wiki page. If even something as small as a period "." is added, it must be done on both sides, otherwise a mismatch will occur. For example, "An overhead line" on Tag:electrified=contact_line and "An overhead line." on Item:Q6997. Or "Oberleitung" on DE:Tag:electrified=contact_line and "Oberleitung." on Item:Q6997. They are both not in sync now because of the "." at the end. So if you change on one page, it would be nice if you could also change on the other corresponding page. --Chris2map (talk) 15:37, 17 March 2025 (UTC)

• Ok, I was unaware of this link - linking to the database. After fixing it is Ok? See item Q6997 / Q110701. --HaPe-CZ (talk) 16:09, 17 March 2025 (UTC)

Sorry, no. That has nothing to do with Wikidata. I didn't want you to change anything at Wikidata. – It is about OSM Wiki pages: For an example, please have a look at Tag:electrified=contact_line. There you can see the infobox on the right side of the page. Below Description there is the text "An overhead line", and this text is stored on that wiki page. You have to edit the wiki page to change the text. And in addition, there is the data item Item:Q6997 that is linked to the wiki page. The data item stores a copy of the data in the infobox. But this copy is not updated automatically. If someone changes the description text line on the wiki page or in the data item, the copy no longer is the same in both places. The copy must also be changed by the one that changed the description. – If you look at Tag:electrified=contact_line you can see a red pencil behind the description text in the infobox. That is because you added a "." to the description text in the data item. One now has to edit the wiki page and add the "." also there. --Chris2map (talk) 19:43, 17 March 2025 (UTC)

Here is an example in Czech language: The description text in the infobox on Cs:Tag:barrier=bollard should be the same like on Item:Q4767. But one was changed and so they mismatch and the other one has to be changed, too. --Chris2map (talk) 19:51, 17 March 2025 (UTC)

• Hi, thanks for the good help on the problem. The current status is already Ok?--HaPe-CZ (talk) 06:30, 18 March 2025 (UTC)

Yes, it's OK. --Chris2map (talk) 08:08, 18 March 2025 (UTC)

Data item labels

Each data item for a tag has one label, stored as English but really neutral. There is no need to duplicate it as Czech. Andrew (talk) 12:19, 22 May 2025 (UTC)

Then you can see the obvious is the same. What's the matter with that?

Translating labels on data items

I wanted to meddle as little as possible with the topic of "labels" in other languages. But do you have any support for your addition of "labels" to data items in Czech? --Chris2map (talk) 15:31, 23 May 2025 (UTC)

No instructions prohibit or restrict this. It is logical for an item to have a description in the national version. --HaPe-CZ (talk) 15:36, 23 May 2025 (UTC)

You might find it logical, but in my opinion, the OSM/Wiki community's practices come first, logical or not. I'm also not sure if there are any technical aspects that should be examined and considered first. --Chris2map (talk) 15:54, 23 May 2025 (UTC)

No restrictions (written by the community) are mentioned here ... see ... https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Special:NewItem --HaPe-CZ (talk) 15:58, 23 May 2025 (UTC)

I completely agree with you that the definition and documentation for the use of data items is incomplete. But a lack of documentation isn't a good justification for unilateral action, is it? --Chris2map (talk) 18:13, 23 May 2025 (UTC)

Your answer has no logical basis. In other words... Something is not forbidden and therefore it is forbidden?. One of the items for creating Items (Qxxxx) is just a label in the national language. Nothing else is there. Then it is logical to add the other labels for the other Items (Qxxxx) separately. It is a great pity that Oivo357 has destroyed many labels in national languages, sometimes very exotic. --HaPe-CZ (talk) 18:28, 23 May 2025 (UTC)

I didn't say it is forbidden. Because I don't want to and I don't can forbid it. That is why my initial question was for interest if there is any opinion or tendency in Czech user community to set labels. It's been a while now when the majority hasn't used the labels. That's what I mean by community's practices. And if one change something, it can be worth a discussion. --Chris2map (talk) 18:41, 23 May 2025 (UTC)

So if someone doesn't use it, no one else can? That's like if I'm not hungry, no one else can be hungry? If someone made labels for a national setting, that has some meaning, doesn't it? If they don't use it, it doesn't matter and the items can be filled anyway.

P.S.: User Oivo357 already replied? --HaPe-CZ (talk) 18:47, 23 May 2025 (UTC)

To emphasize again right away: I do not have complete knowledge of how the data items are implemented here in the OSM wiki and how their use was intended in detail or for what reasons their use is as it is, so far, e.g. regarding translation of labels. The underlying system (Wikibase) wasn't developed specifically for OSM. Therefore, a feature that exists doesn't necessarily mean it's suitable for use in OSM. That's why I'm asking whether your way of using it (translating labels) is considered or coordinated. Previous practice was largely a (tacit) consensus not to translate labels. Therefore, my position remains that we should first know and discuss the reasons for this before changing it. --Chris2map (talk) 07:57, 24 May 2025 (UTC)

But I don't want to change anything in the system (Wikibase). The table of entries (Qxxxx) is fine with me. I just fill in the blanks (new) entries in the national environment that I know. I don't edit other existing entries (label, description, alias) in another language, only in "En" and only if I create a new entry (e.g. Q23022). For one item (Qxxxx), I noticed the new addition of the "Finland" label. Thus, the interest in adding national labels is still active but is unnecessarily suppressed (banned). Why have hundreds or thousands of labels in different languages been added before? Why is user Oivo357 destroying them now? It is only his provocation. Why is Oivo357 still not communicating? Isn't that weird? --HaPe-CZ (talk) 08:14, 24 May 2025 (UTC)

I did't meant changes to the system, but to the use. With "Therefore, a feature that exists ..." I mean, that only because of there are language fields for the labels, it is questionable if they should be used in OSM. – To the topic "translation of labels" in terms of content let's discuss at Talk:Data_items#translation_of_labels. --Chris2map (talk) 09:39, 24 May 2025 (UTC)

Can I ask you, are you a native speaker in the languages for which you are adding labels to data items? E.g. in "pt" or "tr"?
In my opinion, the following approach would be appropriate at this time:

1. To continue the discussion and hear more voices and opinions, then try to find a consensus or understanding. At Talk:Data_items#Translation_of_labels_(follow-up) and additional forums.
2. Leave it up to country specific communities and native speakers, if and how they want to deal with it.

--Chris2map (talk) 15:08, 6 June 2025 (UTC)