Proposal talk:Power Bank Rental

Extension to amenity=rental_machine?

There exists other rental machines, looking on the fact that you have to bring the object rented back to the machine. Even when in most times, at least in Germany, the object "rented" is free of charge. Common examples are machines, which provide you a shopping cart with a coin at the supermarket or a key for your locker at sport or public transportation facilities. Fabi2 (talk) 01:35, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

Yes, I prefer amenity=* + *=powerbank , than a amenity=*_rental for everything. But what about rental services over counter, not machines?
They can offered by other amenity=* and shop=* , on their own, or in cooperation with a rental business. So powerbank_rental=* , or rental:powerbank=* is still needed.
—— Kovposch (talk) 07:21, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

+1 for changing the tag to something like amenity=rental_machine. It should be very clear that it's a machine. Otherwise one could confuse it with other amenities where you could rent power banks and this would result in conflicting tags. I agree, that the use of amenity=charging_station doesn't seem suitable. I think the fact that the machine is also charging the power banks is not important in the tag because it is quite logically implied. For the customer/user the charging process is not important. The "user interface" just implies that you get a charged power bank and return one empty. It's a pity that we already have e.g. bicycle_rental=docking_station which has similar features. Introducing amenity=rental_station could introduce a new tagging possibility for these kind of docking stations with more generalization. Of course that would lead to a bigger proposal... --Segubi (talk)

rental:powerbank=machine allows you to describe the method of rental in the tag. This would allow compatibility if bicycle_rental=docking_station were changed to rental:bicycle=docking_station. This allows almost infinite options with items and ways of renting, e.g. rental:towel=counter for over-the-counter towel rentals, rental:car=yes for generic car rental locations, rental:motorcycle=key_dispensing_machine for a self-service machine that dispenses the keyes to nearby motorbikes, etc. --Tysseract (talk) 04:12, 19 November 2024 (UTC)

Thank you both for the suggestions! There are other rental machines indeed, but I couldn't find a wiki page or any discussion about them anywhere, hence why I went for a new tag. An iteration over amenity=rental_machine would be great, as you could then do rental:powerbank=yes and so on, like you suggested. It's more flexible and akin to what we're doing with payment methods and other things. If a shop were to offer this service, we'd just omit the amenity=rental_machine. Your ideas are great and I am updating the proposal to include them, thanks again! :) --Paguro01 (talk) 18:13, 9 November 2024 (UTC)

You are the first one, who needs this. We already have amenity=vending_machine, but no amenity=rental_machine on OSM up to now. --Fabi2 (talk) 19:17, 9 November 2024 (UTC)

It was suggested above. If shop=rental is accepted, then amenity=rental_station would the counterpart to it and amenity=vending_machine . Really depends on how they should be organized.
—— Kovposch (talk) 07:39, 11 November 2024 (UTC)

Rental machines and vending machines are different in my opinion, and I have done my best to explain it in the proposal. They operate on a different concept and are expected to be different. You can't simply put money in a rental machine and walk away with the thing: it's rented, not owned. --Paguro01 (talk) 11:25, 11 November 2024 (UTC)

The argument for amenity=powerbank_rental isn't true. amenity=bicycle_rental uses bicycle_rental=* for this. But we really need to solve amenity=*_rental , *:rental=* , etc for anything to work. Creating amenity=powerbank_rental and powerbank_rental=* simply leads to more amenity=*_rental and *_rental=* eg amenity=umbrella_rental and umbrella_rental=* for another common machine and auxiliary service.
—— Kovposch (talk) 07:34, 11 November 2024 (UTC)

Came here to suggest amenity=powerbank_rental and powerbank_rental=* as the option most consistent with the current norm. I still think it is a great option that solves a lot of the issues with other options but Kovposch makes a great point that it basically kicks the can down the road when we could use this as an opportunity to make a new common scheme to unify all of the Rental tags in use on the Rental Page, including rental=power_bank, power_bank:rental=yes/no, amenity=power_bank_rental, and power_bank_rental=yes/no. So the question is, does Paguro01 want to reform all of Rental now? Or just get power_bank_rental locations added to the map now, and then have the tagging convention discussion for all of Rental at a later point? --Tysseract (talk) 02:43, 19 November 2024 (UTC)

After thinking about it, Im going to suggest amenity=rental with rental:powerbank=machine on this proposal and then a future proposal reforming all types of Rental locations to amenity=rental with rental:item=yes/no/counter/machine/self_serve. --Tysseract (talk) 03:01, 19 November 2024 (UTC)

Thank you so much for your comments and the new picture on the page! I see your point, but it wasn't my intention to reform Rental - that is better saved for a separate set of proposals, otherwise we'd make this one too broad and it could fail. Your ideas on different values for rental:*=* are interesting and I am adding them to the proposal. Regarding the image you just added, is that a rental machine or a buy-and-trade-in? I am describing Power Bank Rental as machines or services that don't imply you owning the thing; if the machine sells you a battery and you can later drop it at another machine when empty, it's a totally different scenario in my opinion. I will add return_to=* to describe this as I can't find anything in the wiki regarding this. —— Paguro01 (talk) 09:11, 19 November 2024 (UTC)

It is a charging station.

Looks to me very much like a amenity=device_charging_station Add the tag fee=* and a new tag of captive=yes??? to indicate the device is not able to be taken by unauthorised people? Warin61 (talk) 06:20, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

• Arr my error. I was thinking the feature itself recharged devices rather than renting out power banks. I've never seen one, not that I'm looking for such things. In fact I have not seen any rental machines around me at all. A fair few of shops renting things from vehicles, including bicycles, to power saws and tractors, but no vending machines renting out stuff Warin61 (talk) 06:26, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

*:rental versus rental:*

For all kinds of objects, most notably vehicles, the documented and common tagging is using "rental" as a suffix. There are only very few cases of "rental" as a prefix. Therefore, the tag should be power_bank:rental=*. --Mueschel (talk) 11:29, 10 November 2024 (UTC)

There was a DWG block against such mass retagging. Shop suffix is mostly promoted by User:Rtfm , who was accused of many arguments. Cf Talk:Tag:shop=rental#Page_protection
motorcycle=* etc already exists, for the logic of motorcycle:sales=* . For mobile_phone:repair=* . it's shop=mobile_phone , powerbank=* , or *=powerbank doesn't yet. I don't see a need for powerbank:rental=* now. I'm basing it upon on post_office:*=* service for other shops, and rental=* for suffixing.
*:sales=* also competes with sells:*=* . The *:type=* suffix is meaningless as always. Not to mention having *:repair=* besides repair=* and service:*:repair=* .
Certainly, the dedicated amenity=*rental* feature could start with rental=powerbank . But it won't be very nice on other shops offering this service. It's better extended by rental:powerbank:*=* for eg rental:powerbank:network=* to show the service.
—— Kovposch (talk) 07:10, 11 November 2024 (UTC)

If you are against the "rental" prefix and want to change it, this could be the topic of another proposal. This small proposal for a single additional feature should follow the established tagging schemes - and might be changed later, when your additional proposal for major changes is accepted. There is no precedence for a "rental" prefix in the database, apart from bicycle rental stations in three individual cities. --Mueschel (talk) 08:41, 11 November 2024 (UTC)

There's no *=powerbank or powerbank=* yet either. Why should powerbank:*=* be proposed? That's the problem. *:rental=* applies to some shop=* . They don't get created first suddently.
—— Kovposch (talk) 14:16, 19 November 2024 (UTC)

In concept, rental:*=* makes more sense. Does this feature allow renting? Yes (rental:=*) -> What rental is allowed? Powerbanks (*:powerbank=yes). We can reuse this example in other places where this hierarchy is clear: Is parking allowed here? Yes (parking:=*) -> On which sides? Left (*:left:*=*) -> Are there any restrictions? (*:restriction=*). Does this feature have an address? Yes (addr:=*) -> Does this address include an housenumber? Yes (*:housenumber=*). Makes more sense to me. This hierarchy also means that each intermediate step is a valid key on its own to describe the feature up to that level of detail: sidewalk=* -> sidewalk:left=* -> sidewalk:left:surface=*. —— Paguro01 (talk) 11:34, 11 November 2024 (UTC)

+1 for rental:item=method, e.g. rental:powerbank=machine for a rental machine/kiosk, rental:powerbank=counter for over-the-counter rental, or rental:powerbank=yes for generic/undefined rental location. This could easily be combined with amenity=rental if standalone or amenity=shop/bar/library/etc if inside another location. --Tysseract (talk) 04:36, 19 November 2024 (UTC)

I would probably have chosen the prefix variant when creating a schema, but the suffix variant is currently in use. The same applies to similar combinations. E.g. --Chris2map (talk) 15:04, 18 December 2024 (UTC)

service:bicycle:repair service:bicycle:retail service:bicycle:rental service:bicycle:diy service:bicycle:parts service:bicycle:service service:bicycle:sales service:bicycle:cleaning service:bicycle:charging

mobile_phone:repair mobile_phone:sales mobile_phone:accessories

shoes:repair shoes:rental service:climbing_shoes:rental

Let me rephrase. *:rental=* suffix was asked above. To be proper, it still needs the attribute of the feature to be defined, ie shop=mobile_phone and mobile_phone:*=* , while there's no *=powerbank nor powerbank:*=* yet. Secondarily, the *:rental=* suffix was invented by someone without much discussion, and embroiled in controversial as seen from debates, edit wars, and page protection.

service:*:rental=* would be fine, instead of the *:rental=* asked above. If service:*:*=* is to be affirmed as the format to replace all other formats in general, that is. Ie service:*:retail=* instead of sells:*=* , etc.

—— Kovposch (talk) 09:43, 19 December 2024 (UTC)

You're right, it needs a feature tag! I didn't want to address this under the section prefix/suffix. Also, I'm with you regarding the emergence of the shop suffix keys tagging – questionable. Apart from that, I'm not happy with the "service:" stuff, either. So I basicly took the usage counts and those support the :suffix scheme at the moment. But kind of self-evident to me would be to follow the example of amenity=vending_machine + vending=* or vending:*=*, that would be amenity=rental_machine + rental=* or rental:*=*. --Chris2map (talk) 16:42, 19 December 2024 (UTC)

Additional Tags

The additional tags section recommends to use the undocumented "amperage" key - it should point to the set of keys used on charging stations instead: "voltage", "current" and "output". The suggested various "return" tag is also not used at all up to now and needs a proper definition. --Mueschel (talk) 09:23, 17 December 2024 (UTC)

That's because, in this scenario, there is no interest in knowing the voltage (since all powerbanks are USB, so it's both too technical to ask people to map and useless at the same time), as well as current and output. Only useful info is therefore the amperage, which is a no-brainer: the higher, the better. Also, it doesn't even require a unit like width=*, because the amperage can only be measured in... Amperes. —— Paguro01 (talk) 23:13, 17 December 2024 (UTC)

a) USB can be a wide range of voltages, between 5V and 48V. I won't rent a 5V/1A power bank to charge my tablet, because it just isn't powerful enough. b) the documented tag for current is "current", not "amperage". --Mueschel (talk) 08:47, 18 December 2024 (UTC)

It seems both of you are missing the issue. Battery capacity is measured in mAh charge, not mA current. However, there's also Wh energy. *:output=* at least in generator:output=* is W power.
—— Kovposch (talk) 10:01, 19 December 2024 (UTC)

That's yet another issue. "Amperage" is a synonym of "current". To tag the energy stored in the battery, we need to use powerbank:capacity=* which shouldn't be confused with the plain capacity=* on the POI for the number of power banks available. Each power bank has 5 major technical parameters that should be foreseen in the scheme: socket, voltage, current, power and capacity. Usually not all of them need to be present on a POI, but the option to have these tags should be documented. --Mueschel (talk) 19:13, 19 December 2024 (UTC)

The description "capacity (in Ampere) of the powerbanks; if capacity varies, set according to the biggest battery the feature can rent" makes me think the author wants to talk about mAh, instead of mA.
To highlight yet another issue I allured to, there are 2 capacity measures. "Energy" is Wh, common for safety regulation, viz flights carry-on items. Charge is mAh, the most common tech spec, but needs to know the cell voltage used to calculate for context. So some *:capacity=* alone doesn't work well either.
—— Kovposch (talk) 08:48, 20 December 2024 (UTC)

The section also misses to point to the important socket:*=* tags. --Mueschel (talk) 09:23, 17 December 2024 (UTC)

Again, there is no need for sockets in these cases, so machines like this have none. You're probably thinking about charging stations, which are totally unrelated to this proposal. Here you take out a literal brick that is the powerbank, instead of plugging your device to a power outlet in the wall. —— Paguro01 (talk) 23:15, 17 December 2024 (UTC)

There is socket:device:USB-A and socket:device:USB-C which are commonly used on power banks. That is important information. --Mueschel (talk) 08:47, 18 December 2024 (UTC)

Maybe there are some things may need refinement

A mapper said in the chat gruop 好像问题很多，要和 shop 或 amenity 合用，则 brand 很可能冲突，要加前缀，其他 operator, payment 之类同;同上，作为设施服务的一种， service:power_bank:rental 更合理？return 有很多义项，可能也需要命名域区分amperage 作为充电宝的属性不应附加于租借机… It means that:

• If the power bank tank in the shop and it needed to share the node with the shop, the tag brand=* may be conflicted along with payment:=*. For example a "怪兽充电" power bank station in FamilyMart.
• Use the service:power_bank:rental=* can be better.
• return=* is ambiguous
• amperage=* is not the feature of the tank or the station of power bank but is the feature of power bank itself.

In my view, I think this proposal should be polished before voting. This version of proposal can not be convinced by mappers.

以下关于中国大陆地区的充电宝租赁的介绍：
充电宝租赁的机器在这里遍布大街小巷，也有许多品牌，有些是和一些商家共用的，摆放在商家的柜台上，就如主页面中的图片所示的（应该是在深圳拍摄的），有些可能放置于路牌下，公厕内，地铁站内，所有的机器支持借和还，只能通过手机扫码进行充电宝的租借，扫码后，进行押金支付（或者凭信用分代替押金），线上签约，先进行使用，使用结束以后，根据归还的时间进行计算费用，结束订单后，费用会自动弹在用户页面，用户付款即可，每个品牌的充电宝不可混用，有可能有的充电宝不支持异地归还，部分品牌充电宝可以直接花费99 CNY购买，此时不一定属于是单纯的租借机器，也可以属于一个贩售机器。
The following is an introduction to rechargeable treasure rental in mainland China:
Rechargeable treasure rental machines are all over the streets here, and there are many brands too. Some are shared with some merchants and placed on their counters, as shown in the picture on the main page (which should have been taken in Shenzhen); others may be placed under street signs, in public toilets, and in subway stations. All of the machines support borrowing and returning, and you can only rent a rechargeable treasure by scanning the code on your phone. After scanning the code, you pay a deposit (or credit score instead of deposit), sign up online, use it first, and then calculate the cost according to the time you return it. After finishing the order, the fee will automatically pop up on the user's page, and the user can make the payment. Chargers of each brand cannot be mixed. Some rechargeables may not be able to be returned to the same location. Some brands can be purchased directly for 99 CNY, which may not necessarily be a rental machine, but may also be a vending machine. --TRANSTATED BY DEEPL
--Herman Lee Zh (talk) 10:44, 18 December 2024 (UTC)