We did have a long debate about this on the Talk-GB list and the wiki entry for multi-lingual tagging in Wales reflects the outcome of that debate. That says that in instances where the name is the same in Welsh and English:

"The name: tag should contain the name. It is not, in principle, necessary to add either a name:cy or a name:en (since there is only one name in both languages). However, multi-lingual tagging in Wales is currently patchy. Adding a name:cy tag even though this will duplicate the information in the name: tag would help other mappers distinguish between cases where multi-lingual tagging has not yet been applied and cases where the name is the same in Welsh and English."

That's the process we're following. I'd argue that these are Welsh names as they are the names that are used in Welsh.

As you identify here we're not mapping for the render since we don't currently render these names. Though we are experimenting with this approach on our pywll tywod server https://pwlltywod.mapio.cymru

We could also render these names without the name:cy tag by using the wikidata entry (we use wikidata to render quite a lot of Cymraeg names already).

We actively think it is helpful to be unambiguous about the fact that this is the name used in Welsh (as opposed to an English name where multi-lingual tagging has not been applied).

Great. Diolch.

*not _unheard_ of the close to the border

Shw Mae Phil

The direct translation would be Ysgol Gynradd Borderbrook but both the school and Estyn seem to use the English name when communicating in Welsh which is not heard of this close to the border. I try to avoid "rogue translations".

Though it's an interesting policy question we wrestle with at Mapio Cymru. Ysgol Gynradd Borderbrook would be a completely understandable way to refer to this school in Welsh and obviously is Welsh.

Similarly we could always write XXXX Chapel as Capel XXXX and XXXX Church as Eglwys XXXX but currently we look for evidence of the name that is used in Welsh.

I think it's one of those areas where there isn't an obvious right answer. I also suspect it will evolve.

I could go on at some length about these issues :-)

I welcome more discussion within the community though.

diolch Ben

Thanks!

The dangerous overconfidence of a little knowledge.

I've added this in a few places so I'll go and correct them now

Thanks. The dangerous over-cofidence of a little knowledge. I've added this in a few places so I'll go and correct those now.

Ah yes. The Landsker. I agree about not inventing names. At least as far as OSM data goes. The Welsh Language Commissioner also seems to agree.

Sorry. That was a typo. Thanks for spotting. I have corrected.

I sort of agree about the redundancy. The logic (such as it is) is:

The name tag typically contains the name used locally. This can be the name used in Welsh or English and it is not possible to tell the difference. Adding name:en and name:cy makes this unambiguous. Though in the short term it is the name:cy that we are interested in for openstreetmap.cymru we anticipate a demand for a bilingual map.

In the medium term I think it might be more satisfactory to handle these issues in Wikidata rather than OSM. That would allow for even greater layers of complexity (like where the official source for the name in Welsh differs to the name used locally eg Hay on Wye where the Welsh Language Commissioner says the name should be Y Gelli Gandryll but it is generally called just Y Gelli locally.

There are a lot of settlements in Wales where there is no name:cy tag. Most of these appear to have the Welsh name in the name tag. But not all. For caution we are currently not using these names on openstreetmap.cymru. I’ve been trying to work through the place names that lack name:cy and where the value in the name tag appears to be in English. If we can add name:cy tags to each of those we could start to render the values in the name tag with more confidence (though we’d still like to confirm the correct name to use in Welsh and English.

I’m still finding my way through these issues so I’m very happy for guidance or discussion...

Of course.

Sorry. Lapse in concentration.

I'll check my edits and try not to make that mistake again

Diolch yn fawr

Ben