My main interest in OSM is attempting to map public rights of way in the countryside such as bridleways and footways. I have read advice that a way such as a cycleway should only be mapped if someone else can verify its existence somehow – such as physical signs on the route. However, as anyone knows who has tried to follow footpaths in the countryside, many PROWs have no visible presence at certain times of the year – after ploughing or sometimes through fields of tall wheat or rapeseed. There are often no field edge markers which indicate which route you are supposed to take. If you are lucky, those who have gone before will have started to make a trail across a newly planted crop, which then tends to become the accepted route for that part of the footpath. Very often walkers consult their Ordnance Survey map before they strike out across an unmarked field, although the OS map may not be up to date with the legally-binding Definitive Map held by the County Council.
So hopefully you can see where I'm going with this. The aim, as per the Wiki UK_Countryside_mapping is to represent ways with a legitimate “foot=yes or foot=designated” tag. In the absence of signposts, in practice the guide for UK walkers is the OS map, but if I walk a route which I believe follows the OS map for the purposes of a GPS trace, is this not using derived-data? Many people will walk round field-edges where they find the PROW blocked by impenetrable crops – but the arbitray nature of this clearly makes it unsuitable for OSM.
If you don't map bits of a footpath because of lack of signposts, then foot-routes between villages etc lose their function as a route, and become disconnected isolated snippets of path, which seems to me pretty pointless mapping.
Is there a solution to this?
The answer is NO.
It is pointless tracing footpaths from NPE data. Over 50 years, footpaths have been closed, diverted, amalgamated etc and new ones established in line with the changing features of the countryside.
Because of the poor upkeep of footpaths in many parts of the country, it's often impossible to tell which side of a stream, wood or hedge the path travels. If not completely overgrown, the physical trail is often no more than a rabbit track! Because of the ambiguity, it doesn't seem logical to suggest that seeing other walkers on it means that it's 'permissive'. They could be trespassing too. One UK OSM'er suggested that if a farmer with a shotgun wasn't there telling you to get orf his land then where you were walking could be mapped as a public footpath. An unbelievably crass and glib response.
However, my question was not so much about where you can see a path but can't tell if it is a legal right of way or not without looking at the OS map.
It was about when the physical evidence of the path fizzles out and the only way you know which way to proceed is to look at a copyrighted map. Another experienced OSM mapper suggested drawing a straight line between the last known physical evidence point, and the next one, and let the landowner object if it's wrong! This doesn't seem satisfactory to me – that line could cut through crops, private property, industrial plants, protected habitats etc. It isn't reasonable to declare that a particular way exists and put the onus on the landowner to refute it. Assuming we expect the map to be used in practice to navigate, then putting straight paths across countryside without knowing that they exist or have ever existed along that line, is simply inviting people to trespass.
I'm coming to the conclusion that OSM will never map GB rural walking routes at a level of accuracy required by a hiker. Even where legal rights of way exist, there will be significant breaks in the route where it is impossible to provide non-copyright verifiable evidence of the PROW.
Discussion
Comment from Klenje on 3 September 2009 at 07:59
I'm not from UK, but this problem applies here too. IMHO the fact is that those paths are constantly changing, so you should check them in every season. That's why it's hard to map them. And verifiability as you said it's often nearly impossible, I mean, the path is in this way, because when I mapped it you could only pass there. That's way I decided to map paths only in the area where I grew up, so I can tell whether they stay the same year after year or not. Local knowledge is the only solution in this case; the verifiabity issue is still open though. Hope my English is at least understandable ;-)
Comment from Philip on 3 September 2009 at 08:10
This is a question I attempted to ask on the legal mail list (but my mails get bounced for some reason).
Every local authority is legally required to keep a record of public rights of ways - known as 'the definitive map'. For Hampshire this is available online at: http://www3.hants.gov.uk/row/locating-row/row-online-maps (as well as the physical copy in the offices).
*If the public rights of way are not clearly marked or passable, it is the responsibility of the local autority to ensure they are.* This is a statutory requirement. We report sections as and when required.
We do need clear guidance from legal as to what are rights are to that data (*not* the underlying map, but to the legal status of each way).
We are mapping the local area with local knowledge (a human TomTom) so are pretty sure of where most of the rights of way are. Sometimes you will find copies of the definitive map stapled to a post.
As for Ordnance Survey - we have found they are incredibly inaccurate and out of date, where it's done, OSM is much better.
Comment from antonys on 3 September 2009 at 08:31
Interesting questions - my view is that we have to be pragmatic about this. OSM is never (as you suggest) going to provide a definitive guide to footpaths, and waving an OSM map at the farmer with the shotgun isn't going to cut a lot of ice when you explain to them how it was produced. However that doesn't mean that it's not worth doing, and, as other comments have pointed out, the alternatives are not necessarily accurate either.
What OSM can do is to provide a record of what is on the ground, as observed by contributors. I don't see a problem if these contributors used OS or another map to get them to the point that they are recording - it seems rather unlikely that a case for breach of copyright would be made in these circumstances. However if you can work from the 'definitive' map, as suggested by Philip, so much the better. Even better if this is backed up with local knowledge, either your own or the local Ramblers Association for example.
What's also important is that users of OSM understand it for what it is - a crowd-sourced record of the world in 2D - and use their senses (common and otherwise) on the ground if they see a conflict with what's on the map, and then hopefully edit the map as a result. Either way, the end result should be better defined, signed, documented and mapped paths.
Comment from Richard on 3 September 2009 at 08:40
Interesting issue.
It depends very much where you are. OSM already has good public footpath coverage in popular walking areas such as the Brecon Beacons and Snowdonia; and also in areas with dedicated contributors such as West Oxfordshire and the New Forest. These are very much up to the standard required by a hiker. Indeed, they can often be better - many OSMers map stiles and gates, for example, which are not typically shown on OS maps.
OSM will not, however, ever replace the 'Definitive Map' - by its very nature it can't. Is this a failing? Not necessarily. If the real, live footpath is somewhere else than where the Right of Way says it should be, then either the landowner is at fault (and should fix it) or the RoW should be diverted (and the council should fix it). It doesn't affect the validity of the map as long as you've mapped what really is on the ground.
I think you also underestimate what can be gleaned from extrapolation. Those of us who map cycle routes are accustomed to figuring out where the route goes despite the scantiest (or most inconsistent) signage. It's one of the reasons why OSM's cycle map is so good - it's made by cyclists who have a real interest in the routes, not highway engineers who understand little and care less.
There will always be very rarely used RoWs where the signs are unclear, there's no evidence of a path on the ground, and so OSM can't map it. Fair enough. We more than make up for that with our other strengths.
(Personal opinion: I actually don't have much of a problem with "inviting people to trespass". England & Wales law is ridiculously biased in favour of the landowner, who has very few responsibilities to balance up the benefits he derives from a natural resource. I remember the time years ago that a "git orff moi larnd" farmer shouted at me for following a derelict canal across his entirely uncultivated, neglected land - "how would you like it if I walked across your garden?". Sorry mate, but if there was a derelict canal across my garden, I'd have got volunteers in to restore it so that the public could benefit from it.)
Comment from ndm on 3 September 2009 at 08:57
Sometimes you just have to walk a footpath in both directions to get a true idea of the way it "runs" by following the signs. And of course if you've recorded the definitive first section on OSM it makes it much easier to "join the gap" walking the other way. I've found footpaths going through open gardens, through a garden hedge -- even through a doorway that mysteriously appeared :-)
But, if there are no signs on the ground -- then you are out of luck.
Although, even if there are signs, it doesn't mean that the path itself will be traversable.
Comment from davespod on 3 September 2009 at 09:17
I would have thought the Definitive Map would be derived from an OS-copyrighted source, to, would it not? However, following the Hampshire link above, there also seem to be Definitive Statements. Would these be useful in resolving some of the unmarked RoWs? I wish such statements existed for local authority boundaries, rather than using only copyrighted maps for the purpose (it seems that in Scotland, they are defined as statements - "follows River X until the A1234, etc." - in the statutes, but not in England).
If one can be very sure of a right of way through a field which does not seem to have any kind of physical path. How should this be tagged? Footway? I cannot find the answer anywhere in the Wiki and I have searched (the text around footway seems to suggest there has to be something physical on the ground). I have tagged some of what I believe are rights of way across a golf course fairway (the signage by the golf club seemed to suggest this; certainly public access, though they may just be permissive ways) as footways with surface=grass, but I don't know whether this is right. I am also aware of an almost unused right of way across a field my parents used to own (a route to an old cemetry which has not been used for burials for decades), which I would not know how to tag.
Comment from Donald Allwright on 3 September 2009 at 09:22
With respect to the issue of paths that 'disappear' and 'reappear' where it is unclear where to go for a section of the path, I wondered if a pragmatic solution to this is to map a straight line between the known reference points of the path, but add a tag to that section (extrapolated=yes?) to indicate that the exact location is not clear from evidence on the ground. That way, any routing algorithms will still be able to use the data in a meaningful way, but renderers can choose not to render data with this tag.
For that matter, this issue doesn't just apply to paths. I used my GPS to log some main roads in Peru, and there are a few sections where I know there is a road but I didn't manage to get a log for whatever reason. As these roads are the only access to some of the towns in the area it's really important for routers to know that it's a valid route, even if the exact trajectory of the road between two points is not known.
Comment from marscot on 3 September 2009 at 10:44
see if this helps
To get round no path on the ground use tag trail_visibility=poor
and yes use surface=grass part of the clydewalk way is over open grassfields with cows the sign points at the start into the field but its your own course you take to the other side and pick up the next sign I have tagged
highway=path
surface=grass
trail_visibility=poor
lit=no
source=survey
plus its part of the full relation of the clydewalk way
the map that you can buy just stops and leaves you wondering which way to go, but know from local-know thats its across the field and you pick up the next sign there.
Comment from chillly on 3 September 2009 at 11:16
If the path is not marked or is not maintained, report it to your council, maybe more than once. They have a legal obligation to maintain the marking and access to public rights of way. You are then helping other fellow walkers whether they use OSM or not.
You don't have to doggedly trace the route from your GPS. Extending routes that are obvious, but temporarily blocked, for example by crops, is legitimate. Photos help to remember the situation later. Tag it source=extrapolation.
We can all campaign for the release of definitive data help by public bodies but that has copyright claimed by the Ordnance Survey. Write to your council, your MP, your local newspaper, radio station and TV station.
If you think any of this matters, don't just give in.
Comment from RichardB on 3 September 2009 at 12:55
Quichina: If you can't tell which direction the path goes, follow the most logical route at the time. This will typically be a straight line across a field, or following field boundaries. If necessary, back-track to the last waymark arrow and check the direction. Follow a straight line from there in the direction the waymark arrow is pointing. Did it lead you to a stile, gate, or a post with another waymark arrow etc (even if broken). If so, you can be happy enough to mark that on OSM. If it didn't and you've reached the edge of a field, then you might need to track along the field boundary until you do find one. When you eventually find it, it's useful to back-track from this point to where you where you originally were (and knew you were still on the footpath).
If all fails, approach from the other direction, and see if you can end up on the original route.
If there are tall crops obscuring vision and possible routes through, then you might need to come back at a different time of year when there aren't. Growing crops on the line of a public right of way is not allowed and you could ask the council to sort this out.
If you, who after all is out actually looking to find the correct route, can't follow the correct route, then chances are not many others will be able to using the signs alone. Get onto the council and ask them to add additional waymarks or signs. The council have a duty to waymark routes where the situation is not clear.
Comment from Philip on 3 September 2009 at 15:03
Here is a useful primer from the Ramblers - in particular #7 & #13 indicating the responsibilities of the local authority:
http://www.ramblers.org.uk/info/britain/footpathlaw/footpathlaw.htm
Part of my motivation for mapping the rights of way is to ensure they are fully and accurately documented so there can be no future 'fudging' (as appears to frequently happen now).
This is a prime example: osm.org/?lat=51.277&lon=-1.39027&zoom=16&layers=B000FTF
The paths appear to have been (un?)officially re-routed. When trying to map them we got quite lost and bumped into the local farmer. Once he understood we were trying to find the rights of way, the 'gerrofmyland' turned into 'I'll drive up and show you where it's been re-routed' - he understood the benefit of having the new route properly mapped and was most helpful - even though (because we were lost) we were 'trespassing'.