"Crisis of anarchy"
Posted by BushmanK on 25 January 2017 in English. Last updated on 26 January 2017.Reading this thread from the Tagging mail list, I’ve noticed several posts describing a problem of lacking governance, leading to endless (even looped) discussions and other negative consequences for the project. I agree with that because if we really want to create, maintain and improve “the best map of the world”, it is counter-effective to rely on natural evolution only. Obviously, it will take too much time.
But I don’t think that governance requires a government as a group of people, like Mark Bradley have proposed in that thread. It could be enough to have a formal guideline or a declaration of goals. For example, we can endlessly argue about semicolon-delimited values, presenting nicely polished pros and cons. But it is impossible to have a consensus if we don’t have a goal or a guideline to test a certain proposal or a statement against it.
Like, how important is it to be able to query any new tag with an Overpass API? Is Overpass API a key part of the OSM infrastructure, or not? Should we care about having a universal meaning of every tag in any country? Should we care about not having a non-verifiable, vague or relative definition of a tag? What about overlapping definitions? Is it important not to force a data consumer to conduct a detailed research on every tag before he’d be able to use it? Is it acceptable to have a scheme that requires a pre-processing with a spatial query?
Without a common goal, any discussion inevitably degrades into a contest of personal views. A special group of people can’t fix it because they also need something to test everything against it. They can, probably, try to replace it with their wisdom, but it doesn’t seem to be a good idea.
Guidelines could be developed as a GitHub-hosted document(s) to be able to actually develop it and to maintain full control over it, instead of using a bit anarchist Wiki style.
There is an idea (also mentioned in that thread), that everything in this project is already governed by an implementation. But actually, it says nothing about how good or bad a certain thing is. For example, there could be an awful tagging scheme, but there could also be a person, who doesn’t think so, and who have implemented it in his tool, renderer or editor. Other people, who have not enough knowledge to understand what’s wrong with this scheme, just starting to use it (tag objects with it). Finally, we have a lot of objects tagged this way and it is nearly impossible to change this scheme because nobody cares except ones who keep saying that “changing things is the worst thing”. Doesn’t seem like a productive practice because it literally translates into a “the first one is the winner” principle - obviously, it makes any further improvements significantly harder.
As a bottom line, I want to say it again: government as a group of people doesn’t seem to be necessary but having better guidelines does.
Update. The difference between a government group and a guidelines development group is quite simple and obvious.
The government is an executive organization. Usually, it looks into every case within its scope and has to make a decision how to deal with this specific case. Obviously, it takes a lot of time and it is still impossible without having a commonly accepted set of rules. Otherwise, it leans towards an authoritarian system.
Hypothetically, guidelines development group is a “legislative” organization. It has to make decisions regarding of technical questions before such question will raise. The solution gets a power of rule. So, it solves a lot of similar future questions at once. It saves time, it can’t be personal, it is evidence-based.
Discussion
Comment from Zverik on 26 January 2017 at 09:55
So, we don’t need government, but a group of people who would write guidelines and enforce them? What’s the difference?
Comment from BushmanK on 26 January 2017 at 10:35
@Zverik,
Do you see the difference between a group of people who have to decide on each particular case and a group of people who helps to write a law that doesn’t always need to be enforced because not everyone wants to break it?
But looking at the caricature of rules you have created for the Russian OSM forum, it doesn’t seem like you can understand it because you prefer the “manual” style of governance when you always have the last word due to a vague law that always must be interpreted instead of having a clear regulation.
Comment from Zverik on 26 January 2017 at 11:25
Comment from salmin on 26 January 2017 at 13:23
It always suprised me, how far OSM is lagging behind Wikipedia on this matter, given the similarities of these projects: an open and equal community working to build the best database of ***.
Wikipedia’s approach to “not an anarchy” can be summarized as follows:
The goal of the project is to write the best encyclopedia. Every action should be judged from this viewpoint
File pillars are fundamental principles that are assumed to guide the communinity to whatever “the best encyclopedia” means
Policies are developed and vote-approved by the community. The only purpose of a policy is to define what actions are useful in the context of five pillars and what are destructive
Elected Administrators can block actions that violate existing policies. They do not invent or approve new policies.
Elected Arbitration Committee judges whether actions of Administrators or Users fall withing policies in questionable cases. It does not invent or approve new policies.
In general this structure follow the “trias politica” principle: direct vote across the community serves as legislature, administrators represent the executive power and AC is a judiciary power. As you might expect, this brings tons of new problems, still it’s a step into the right direction.
On the other hand, OSM now somewhat resembles the Russian segment of Wikipedia e.g 10 or 12 years ago. It takes a very big community and a long time for this approach to start working. In fact, many regional segments of WP still have only a partial implementation and it’s fine.
Comment from SomeoneElse on 26 January 2017 at 15:00
@salmin Yes, because obviously we just need to follow what wikipedia does :)
More seriously, wikipedia and OSM are very different. We’ve seen people coming from wikipedia recently and seeming shocked that they were asked about what they had been editing - in OSM it’s not good enough to just copy from somewhere else. In many ways OSM is the anti-wikipedia - original knowledge is preferred.
Whilst communities online and offline can always learn from one another, I’d take advice from wikipedia with a very large pinch of salt.
Comment from salmin on 26 January 2017 at 15:30
@SomeoneElse As a Wikipedia editor I eat salt with a shovel and very well understand what you’re talking about.
The thing is, large community projects [that I know of] always end up developing a complex system of commitees, workgroups, guidelines, 3-5 levels of authorities etc. Now if we consider that inevitable for OSM (which is probably not true, I don’t know) then it’s very reasonable to take Wikipedia’s experience into account. While it has many issues, it’s definitely not the worst one. At least because of all general-purpuse *pedias it’s the only one afloat for so many years.
Comment from BushmanK on 26 January 2017 at 16:11
@Zverik, that’s pathetic, as expected from you.
Comment from BushmanK on 26 January 2017 at 16:23
@SomeoneElse, @salmin - indeed, OSM is different from Wikipedia. And the main difference seems to be in an attitude. I’m not an expert on Wikipedia, but it looks like people there often like to categorize and systematize things (it is even has been mentioned in the welcoming article for Wikipedia editors in the OSM Wiki). While in OSM anarchism and individualism are very strong. Otherwise, there would be some real rules already, instead of “recommendations”. There is even no clear goal definition (like “making the best map”) - a lot of people exercising a “recreational” mapping just for a personal fun, which obviously doesn’t require any quality standards, for example.
And exactly because of that, I’m saying that installing a direct government is bad and unrealistic measure. At the same time, developing a set of guidelines doesn’t look that unrealistic. For example, smaller part of the OSM project have something like that, just like OSM Carto (also known as Standard) style goal definition.
Comment from salmin on 26 January 2017 at 19:36
@BushmanK Yep, it’s all about the ultimate goal.
It’s not that anarchy in the community project is bad, no. It’s kind of cool I guess, it’s very interesting to see how it functions. The problem is, at some point people have to chose what’s more important: a cool project or the best map.
Comment from BushmanK on 26 January 2017 at 19:55
@salmin, exactly. As I said above, there is a large fraction of people who don’t consider quality really important (or more important than something else), because they have a different motivation - having fun, socializing (mapping parties, conferences and so on), humanitarian projects.
Obviously, I’m not saying that we have to kick these people out because they don’t think that quality is important (while some people do think that I’m always proposing something like that). I’m saying that to improve the quality there should be at least a minimum requirement to test different stuff against it.
Comment from SomeoneElse on 26 January 2017 at 20:25
I’m sorry, but if you think that the choice is between “a cool project or the best map” then you’re talking through part of your anatomy not best adapted for the purpose :)
Let’s take an example. According to Wikipedia that is a “is a place noted on a map”. That curious form of words was used after various people tried to get the article deleted because the place does not exist. Perhaps it did, 150 years ago or so. Unfortately, the wikipedia admins, who thought they knew best, decide that because some left-over historic text appears on some maps of the area it deserves an article, and for that reason it lives on as a 21st-century “trap street” advertising the folly of wikipedia.
In fact it gets worse - it even has a wikidata article, and that has been shoe-horned into a category of “hamlet” rather than “place that used to exist but doesn’t any more” because whatever created it had no local knowledge. I say “whatever” rather than “whoever” there with reason, because the history suggests it’s bot-created and almost-entirely bot-modified.
In short, wikipedia is an excellent example to OSM - of exactly what not to do.
Comment from BushmanK on 26 January 2017 at 22:24
@SomeoneElse, unfortunately, using a single example to discredit a whole practice looks more like a fallacious reasoning. Examples could serve as an illustration of some logical statement that explains, what is fundamentally wrong with a certain approach, but can’t be used as a reliable argument against it by themselves. Actually, they can, but only against the very specific type of claim - when someone says that something is perfect, but that’s not the case here. I mean, you might be right and Wikipedia has a fundamental flaw, but you haven’t presented a general description of it.
“A cool project” in this case reflects a view of a certain fraction of mappers, who think that OSM is something for having fun while demanding any improvement of data quality ruins that fun for them. A good illustration of that could be a case when you telling some “fun mapper” that he uses a wrong tag, violates a requirement of verifiability or something else, and he tells you to f**k off because you are too serious and refers to the “any tags you like” rule. Without a well-defined fundamental goal, that says nothing about mapping for fun, it is nearly impossible to explain, why data consistency is more important than some anarchist’s enjoyment of playing with the iD.
Comment from salmin on 27 January 2017 at 09:41
@SomeoneElse it’s interesting that you’ve brought up this particular case. Note that I never proposed to adopt any of Wikipedia’s policies, that is: definition of good and bad content (and therefore good and bad edits). I’m talking about a project structure that ensures that content in the project complies with policies defined for that project, whatever they are.
This is the case where Wikipedia adhered to its principles and I can explain why. The thing is, Wikipedia never describe an actual object from reality, it describes an image of that object in the “information space”. If there’s a house with black walls, but all of books, news articles, magazines etc say that it has white walls – then the Wikipedia article about this house will mention white walls. Even though some of WP editors had seen black with their own eyes. This may be disappointing, but that’s the way it functions at the moment. The thing is, study of real objects is a “search for truth”, that is what scientists do. WP editors are not scientists, they never do research, only combine existing pieces of information. [OFFTOPIC: now if you happen to hit this issue somewhere, what you need to do is to publish your results (observation of a black wall) somewhere outside of WP. It will affect the “information space” and therefore is supposed affect WP too, with help of editors].
Now the OSM is the opposite on that matter. Every editor IS a cartographer (an that is science), he HAS TO do research on the ground, he cannot take information for other sources besides a handful of exceptions. This is absolutely fabulous and I certainly don not suggest to change it. All I’m saying is Wikipedia is very good at sticking to it’s principles, whether they’re good or bad. This is something worth looking at.
Comment from d1g on 6 February 2017 at 15:23
@salmin, @SomeoneElse, @BushmanK
Thank you for civil and well argumented discussion.
osm.wiki/Etiquette
Comment from BushmanK on 6 February 2017 at 16:35
@d1g, is this a thousandth time when you share this link? How about to stop doing that everywhere? Nobody really cares.
Comment from d1g on 6 February 2017 at 18:09
@BushmanK, I can understand your style/implication and criticism clearly.
Still, could I ask you a favour:
Try to support good ideas more frequently, It will help you to switch to the right and fresh state quicker. Ex, I love to watch what Mapbox does (or any other open company, really).
Comment from BushmanK on 6 February 2017 at 18:20
@d1g, I mean, nobody cares about that link you can’t stop posting. Exactly because you’ve done that so many times. That is simply annoying. This conversation has stopped more than a week ago. So, just stop.