Und nicht vergessen place=locality anzugeben, sonst wird das ganze bei http://regio-osm.de nicht ausgewertet!

The old scheme (ignore all optional/common tags like ‘name’, ‘operator’, ‘ref’, etc): 1 node where PT users are waiting + 1 tag (“highway=bus_stop”)

Until you realize that there are tram stops which don’t include a bus=no, sometimes not even a tram=yes. And often the railway tags are on the track, not connected to the “bus” node.

By default you cannot 100% assume that highway=bus_stop is actually a stop just for a bus or even a bus at all.

Also the assumption “1 node where PT users are waiting” is wrong. As I pointed out in a comment above there are over 100000 bus_stops mapped together with stop_position. Which means probably most of them are on the road.

I pretty much share the opinion of the next comment here:

Reality is that newcomers mostly use presets for tagging. So it would not matter if a simple bus stop is represented by highway=bus_stop or public_transport=stop_position + bus=yes.

What I don’t really agree with is that the public_transport= needs that much work. Some examples would be nice going to be working on that, but what matters are the tables and the mandatory tags.

The problem is the highway=bus_stop page, which as there are 3 different opinions (use it as platform, on the road or not at all) is pretty much impossible to clean up without upsetting a lot of people… I personally as I said would just put a redirect on public_transport, while others stand 110% behind the tag and probably would rather do it the other way round.

I just don’t know what to say. I feel like you are telling me we shouldn’t teach kids to multiply 4x6, because 6+6+6+6 is something they are already familiar with and an easier approach.

Here in the West Midlands of UK, the highway=bus_stop is used in the same way by all mappers - the position of the bus shelter/pole.

And here in Germany it is very common to put in on a node in the street.

Looking at taginfo you can see that it is frequently used with public_transport=stop_position Assuming most of those are correctly set all those bus_stops are on the street, ID does even have an icon for that which suggest that that is the correct use.

I get the problem that the public transport schema is trying to solve, but if after 3 years the tag is not well adopted, then you have a problem.

It doesn’t help when it is not rendered on the map and the ID editor uses highway=bus_stop as default.

Personally I would start by making the wiki pages a lot easier to read (shorter, basic example, separate pages for buses, trams, etc).

I’m just saying, it needs to be with the community.

And that is my problem. Look at all the comments here. Everybody supporting highway=bus_stop How Am I supposed to clean up the wiki when we can neither agree on highway=bus_stop vs. public_transport nor if it is supposed to be used on the street or where people are waiting?

Meanwhile check out public_transport= and you get a very clean overview over the basic tags.

separate pages for buses, trams, etc

That whole purpose of the new public_transport system is that this is not needed.

Why should we say “sorry, churches are easy to map, but bus routes aren’t”? What sort of message is that to send out?

Why? Because REALITY! Some things are easier to map than others. A railway network is more complex than a house.

What about the administrative boundaries? Those aren’t easy to map either and might not exist in his town, I’d say on the same level if not more complicated than routes, yet they are successfully used all over OpenStreetMap. Are you questioning those, too? Has the whole boundary system failed? Should we just start using area=city with name=xyz instead of relations?

It is incumbent on people “designing” tagging schemes to make them approachable for the newcomer. If the scheme fails that test, it isn’t fit for purpose.

Sorry, but that is a GIANT misconception.

Pretty much any kind of relation is not easily approachable for a newcomer. Some are easier some are more complicated, but in general you won’t be able to do anything without a look into the wiki and even then you will spend more than a minute there. And that’s perfectly fine, newcomers don’t need to be able to map everything.

There is for example zero need that a newcomer should be able to map and understand the Traffic Message Channel Tagging Schema without investing some time.

It’s simpler. It’s gives people the information they want (i.e. where is the bus stop for this side of the road).

Mh no it doesn’t. There is not rule where the place the bus_stop

And it gets even better when you realize what’s actually in the Editor: .

Turns out that node you can see is absolutely useless. All the information is in the platform with a highway=bus_stop tag that isn’t shown.

You need to create a relation and add the appropriate stop_position for the direction of travel, right?

No. You should make a relation in the new schema, but that relation isn’t the important one. The route relation which gets the tag is what matters. Which is also my main argument why this is something that newcomers won’t be able to easily map.

If yes, then why not just do the same with highway=bus_stop and assume the stopping place is on the road adjacent to the bus stop?

Because your software does not just want to “assume” something. They want a stop position on the track/road

One of the main reasons we map public transport is for routing applications!

Why is the stopping point even relevant to OSM? Only the bus driver needs to know this, so why tag for a single end user?

Bus Driver = Bus = Software. Sorry, but did you really think we are just mapping things the end user can see on the map?

For a new user (or infrequent bus stop mapper) they won’t know that “platform” gets mapped to the side of the road, whist “stop” is as a node in the road.

Where else would you map platform. The name literally says what it is. And if a newbie places the stop node beside the road where the bus stops it takes me 1 second to drag it on the road.

All you are doing is ranting over osm.wiki/Tag:public_transport=, but not explaining how highway=bus_stop is better.

You say it is easier, but that’s just because you can apply highway=bus_stop randomly to whatever you want. Every fault you point out in the new schema pretty much applies to the old one, too. And yes maybe people will use wrong values, but we can fix that. Every day dozen of people apply wrong and new values to the shop= tag.

If you make it so simple that it’s obvious without having to look in the wiki then it many more people will help contribute data

Again are bus stops really something where you need a lot of beginners to contribute? My city had every stop I use and most nodes date back 4 years when you check the history.

How should public transport be converted into a simple interface for iD?

If you search for Bus it could show you Bus Stop and Bus Platform, then instead of placing highway=bus_stop, it places public_transport=stop_position and bus=yes. With the platform it just ignores the bus part and places a platform.

And if the user figures out to search for public transport it could list the things even better (like it now does with building)

Stops as nodes on the way, platforms next to the way makes this task more challenging.

How is highway=bus_stop better? Great it can be used for both, but do you really think that is what Telenav or Bus companies want? A tag that’s not even 100% defined, so it can’t even be fixed by an experienced mapper, because there is no right way to do it? Btw. here is actually a company using the public_transport schema, they even have their own mappers applying it.

Overall a user would be more likely to place the public_transport nodes correctly, because the schema presents him with 2 options: stop_position & platform. And platform is self explaining so it’s easier to guess where stop_position belongs

If I am to ask a newcomer to map a bus stop on OSM I am pretty confident that they would find highway=bus_stop a more obvious tag than the public transport schema.

Why is a bus stop something that has to be easy for newcomers to tag? Most of them don’t change and you need a more experienced mapper for the routes anyway.

Apart from that what do you think newcomers map more often: Bus Stops or opening hours? Why Am I asking? Because of this diary from today about mistakes with opening hours… how many can actually map those without reading through the Wiki.

Having a common mechanism for tagging a concept of place where one waits for a public transport service

Then why are 90% of the bus_stop tags here on/in the road and not at the platform where people wait?

What we need are concepts which sit most comfortably with the implicit classifications which people use. Most of us treat bus/tram stops, railway platforms, airport gates, and taxi ranks as distinct.

Then where is tram_stop? (Oh I just found it in the railway section. Great now I would have to read that when i start tagging the trams) Where is subway_stop? Also railway halt translates into all kind of things in German and the wiki even suggests merging it with tram_stop. When I have stop_position bus=yes, tram=yes etc. I at lest know that I just have to find the right ???=yes tag or leave it to the next guy, but I can always set the stop tag.

Look at a city like Munich: Straßenbahn(tram), U-Bahn(subway), S-Bahn(light rail - a translation which btw. nobody knows) and Eisenbahn(raiload).

So what is easier now: Setting a default public_transport=stop_position or figuring out if it is railroad/tram=stop/halt/tram_stop in the first place? Is there maybe a railway=subway_stop? Not to mention that trams often share stops with buses. 2 nodes? bus_stop with tram=yes? railroad_tram_stop with bus=yes?

These implicit classifications might be great as long as they work, but become a nightmare when the “lock-and-key principle” fails.

In other words if highway=bus_stop had not existed before the public transport schema, I’m sure that it or something very similar would have been invented anyway.

I doubt it. More experienced mappers would simple remove every redundant tag and overall as I said those stops are very limited and among the first things that were mapped.

flawed

Could you elaborate that? So far the only problem I have found was the station tag, but that has nothing to do with highway=bus_stop, but rather with amenity=bus_station and railway=station.

way too complicated.

Set a public_transport=stop_position on the street, a public_transport=platform where the people are waiting and put them in a stop_area relation. The only thing I found complicated were all the inconsistencies, because this highway tag still shows up everywhere.

Yes it’s more complicated than highway=bus_stop, but also covers a lot more. highway=bus_stop itself is already inconsistent, so while it’s a lot easier you don’t even know if it’s a stop position or platform.

Also a lot of things in OpenStreetMap are complicated, but most multipolygons cause me much more headaches than this simple relation.

Leider lassen sich solche Eintragungen nur mit Ortskenntnis korrigieren.

Naja meistens gibt es doch eine Homepage mit Öffnungszeiten. Meistens ist dann ja schon klar, was gemeint war.

For my second round of adding features, I walked around campus and recorded ever fire hydrant, informational sign (gardens, welcome maps etc), and set of trash bins I could find. The resulting field map was used as a reference when digitizing these features.

You have to use the correct tags in order for the POIs to show up on the map and be recognized by any software.

Don’t name them - osm.wiki/Names

The names should be restricted to the name of the item in question only and should not include categories, types, descriptions, addresses or notes. If something really doesn’t have a name, don’t add one to OpenStreetMap.

emergency=fire_hydrant

amenity=waste_basket

Das sind Fehler, die jOSM (ka, wie das bei iD&Co ist) vor dem hochladen anmeckert.

ID meckert NIE rum. Er sagt die nur mal du hast einen untagged way, aber das ist dann auch schon alles.

tl:dr Tragt Öfnnungszeiten nach Schema ein und informiert Euch im Wiki!

Ich vermute das miderstens 2/3 dieser Edits auf User zurückgehen die einfach nur mal einen POI im ID adden bzw. irgendeine App benutzen und nicht ins Wiki schauen.

Da hilft wie du schon sagst nur ein Bot oder man markiert es auf einer map wie keepright und hofft auf die Community.

Falls du es nicht schon benutzt: Ich empfehle JOSM + http://josm.openstreetmap.de/wiki/Help/Plugin/HouseNumberTaggingTool

Backlink Spam. See Profile.

Backlink Spam. See profile.

http://switch2osm.org/case-studies/

Would be a good place for that.

The Wheelmap […] Woulnd’t people using this data on Google maps mean more people with an interest to maintain and improve it on OpenStreetMap since they would know that adding data to OpenStreetMap means adding it to all the maps in the world?

I doubt it. Most people would use the app and never even realize OpenStreetMap is behind it, if they even use the WheelMap app and not just Googles own app, because it’s at the moment still superior when it comes to routing and searching for locations/POIs. A lot of people didn’t even know google was behind youtube until it required a g+ account.

OpenStreetMap’s opportunity is not to compete and win against the Google Maps of the world

For me personally it’s actually a significant motivation. Google already has several almost monopolies and at least OSM offers a realistic alternative maps, maybe not win, but at least be a viable choice.

OpenStreetMap simply won’t matter if it doesn’t power the applications that millions of individuals use to search, navigate and contextualize each day.

As we like to say in Germany: Kleinvieh macht auch Mist. (≈Many a little makes a mickle)

OpenStreetMap does not need to become the default map. If it is used on thousands of small apps, because the key=value system is superior to using google maps in combination with a database then that we be just as or maybe even more valuable as being the default map. And I think people are more likely to contribute to such small apps, because they usually have a interest in what those are about.

Overall I think you are overestimating the amount of people who would realize OpenStreetMap is running in the back of an application and then start contributing. And why aren’t people out in droves and using the Google Map Maker contributing to the map they use all the time?

I addition it’s a map we are talking about. At some point most of the basic things will be mapped sooner or later. I spend weeks to finish my village, but now it is done and will maybe require a few minutes of upkeep every month if at all. Yes, maybe we could accelerate the process a bit with opening up, but sooner or later OpenStreetMap will reach the goal of being “almost” complete and just reacting to new changes anyway. And long before that time it will already be a viablefor most applications.

PS Does anyone know how to find who’s making the most recent changes in your area? I’d love to meet some other local OSM’ers!

http://resultmaps.neis-one.org/

Conclusion: Having a contest to make the most “edits” does risk people going for questionable things that touch a lot of ways.

First thing I expected when reading about the contest :/

It also means that unless you are 100% committed you stand no chance.

I think contests around OpenStreetMap should rather be based on making a few edits over a certain time frame (make 5 edits every day for a week) and then you pick a winner out of all who managed to do that. This would also get a lot more people started with OSM.

Maybe you could also base it around a Quality Assurance like a bet in Germany Or you limit it to a certain tag for example opening hours added to shops.

Have you checked out http://wheelmap.org/en/?

Might be useful when mapping and on the move.

the problem is mostly about detecting the spam rather than removing it.

There is a whole Wiki Page full with links to Spam Profiles.

If automatically detecting it’s so easy then I look forward to seeing the code, as I’m sure does the author of every blogging platform in the world.

Well, I think one automated mechanism that would work (if it is possible to code) is that you need a certain amount of edits to publish a diary and otherwise you can’t or it will need mod approval. (Maybe even require that for links in user descriptions, so it just displays the text for new accounts).

Obviously you can’t automoderate links, my point was just that you usually don’t need to understand the language to see if a link is spam or not.