Proposal talk:Utility poles proposal

Current status

What is the current status of this proposal? Do you need contributions from OSM contributors / contacts in the various industries? --Dónal (talk) 20:39, 27 August 2020 (UTC)

Proposal Discussion

Is this proposal being discussed anywhere apart from the wiki? Happy to contribute. --Dónal (talk) 20:38, 27 August 2020 (UTC)

This proposal wasn't discussed nor notified outside of wiki for now. Local examples may be useful but I need time to write it down, wait for it Fanfouer (talk) 20:49, 28 August 2020 (UTC)

Adding man_made=utility_pole to power=pole?

Resolved: Tag power=pole is preserved and mappers aren't encouraged to mix man_made=utility_pole and power=pole

It's not clear from the examples: are you proposing adding man_made=utility_pole + utility=power to some power poles, e.g. those that also carry telephone or fiberoptic cables? --Jeisenbe (talk) 18:17, 10 September 2020 (UTC)

Hi Joseph, if this proposal gets adopted, it will be right and not mandatory to add man_made=utility_pole + utility=power to any power=pole object. Meaning of power=pole won't change. Examples that got man_made=utility_pole + utility=power correspond to poles that primary role is to support power lines. Fanfouer (talk) 21:19, 10 September 2020 (UTC)

I don't think that's a good idea. Why add 3 tags instead of one? Also, in that case it would not be correct to edit the power=pole page to say that the two tags were implied: if they are implied, then they don't need to be added. --Jeisenbe (talk) 00:41, 11 September 2020 (UTC)

I didn't write that man_made=utility_pole + utility=power should be added to power=pole objects but it won't be wrong to do so. Unless I missed where in the wiki it is not recommended to add implied tags to osm objects?

Poles, towers, portals... are supports and not proper power or telecom objects just like a marker=* is not a pipeline device. That's why I find man_made=utility_pole + utility=telecom more consistent than telecom=pole Fanfouer (talk) 21:10, 11 September 2020 (UTC)

It's fine to add tags which are not redundant, but in this case power=pole already clearly indentifies the object as a power utility pole, so adding two more tags does not give any additional information.

Are you proposing to eventually deprecate power=pole and instead use man_made=utility_pole + utility=power? That seems to be the only reason to propose duplicating these tags. But I think that would be unnecessary and more work for mappers: two tags, one of them rather long, need to be used instead of one short tag which provides identical information to the two new tags.--Jeisenbe (talk) 05:23, 23 September 2020 (UTC)

The proposal won't make power=pole deprecated. It's clear in the document. Can you explain us why power poles should get power=pole and others will get common man_made=utility_pole?

As utility=power exists, how mappers are supposed to choose between power=pole and man_made=utility_pole + utility=power if the first doesn't imply the lasts? Fanfouer (talk) 22:22, 24 September 2020 (UTC)

Needs to be more extensible

Resolved: Added to proposal

I think that man_made=utility_pole is an excellent first step to a better tagging scheme. Where I live (in Massachusetts) most utility poles are owned by the telephone company (according to my friend who works at Verizon) and the electric company and whoever has a CATV contract for the town leases space on the poles. So to say we should tag "utility=* to give the main activity for which the pole was installed" seems like something not possible for the common person to answer. If you don't have a friend from Verizon you might say it's a pole for electricity because their wires are bigger. We need a scheme that can describe all the different utilities on the pole without needing to divine which is the primary purpose. A utility pole can simultaneously carry the following:

• High voltage electricity
• Lower voltage electricity
• Coaxial cable carrying TV; telephone & internet
• Copper wire bundles for telephone & T1 internet (called POTS by telephone workers)
• Fiber optic cables carrying TV; telephone & internet
• Electrical transformers
• CATV or telephone equipment cabinets
• Street lights
• A fire emergency pull box with a corresponding red light above
• Did I miss anything?

One tag utility=* is inadequate to describe all of the above. In my area 3 companies have wires on the same poles. One electric & two telecoms. What's the best way to extend this tag? By company type? By wire type? By wire purpose? Do we use utility_electric or utility:electric? I think we need to get more perspectives from around the world.--Rassilon (talk) 16:33, 20 September 2020 (UTC)

Hi ! That's good information thank you.

The point of utility=* combined to man_made=utility_pole isn't to state the list of what is carried by a given pole but to give its original purpose.

We can retreive what is hold by a pole by looking at ways it is member of, it's not necessary to list them in a tag.

As you mention poles holding power lines owned by a telecom company, are you able to find out why Verizon had built stronger poles to hold power lines if its first plan was to roll out telephone? Currently and although people won't be knowledgeable about Verizon, they will be tempted to tag them power=pole (and may be forced to: power=line expects pole or tower as supports).

Here is how I think we can retreive every pole usage :

• High voltage electricity : pole member of a power=line way
• Lower voltage electricity : pole member of a power=minor_line way
• Coaxial cable carrying TV; telephone & internet : pole member of a way with tags remaining to be defined (telecom=line eventually) + telecom:medium=coaxial
• Copper wire bundles for telephone & T1 internet (called POTS by telephone workers) : pole member of a way with tags remaining to be defined (telecom=line eventually) + telecom:medium=copper
• Fiber optic cables carrying TV; telephone & internet : pole member of a way with tags remaining to be defined (telecom=line eventually) + telecom:medium=fibre
• Electrical transformers : transformer=* on the pole (and eventually substation=*, see Proposed_features/Substation_nodes_extension)
• CATV or telephone equipment cabinets: street_cabinet=* on the pole
• Street lights highway=street_lamp on the pole
• A fire emergency pull box with a corresponding red light above : not aware of an eventual emergency=* value to add on the pole
• Did I miss anything? Maybe wires used for local sound system used by local authorities, but that would be an additional way

All the best Fanfouer (talk) 20:48, 22 September 2020 (UTC)

power=tower

So power=pole would imply man_made=utility_pole but power=tower not, right? Mateusz Konieczny (talk) 11:24, 19 March 2021 (UTC)

That's right Fanfouer (talk) 11:39, 19 March 2021 (UTC)

Against man_made=utility_pole + utility=power

Resolved: Tag power=pole is preserved and mappers aren't encouraged to mix man_made=utility_pole and power=pole

Adding "man_made=utility_pole + utility=power" as synonym of power=pole is not helpful, I would rather deprecate utility=power and consider it as undesirable duplicate of power=pole / power=tower

"anyone interested will be able to add man_made=utility_pole + utility=power beside power=pole" - it sounds like first step toward attempt to deprecate power=pole Mateusz Konieczny (talk) 11:27, 19 March 2021 (UTC)

utility=power is far more generic than poles topic. It can be added on many facilities dedicated to power networks, street cabinets, buildings and there's no reason to deprecate it this way.

This proposal only intends to make a necessary link between power and telecom poles mapping. It comes out of the ground observation they're similar features with different tagging. The short term point isn't to deprecate power=pole but to don't encourage telecom=pole. Fanfouer (talk) 22:35, 19 March 2021 (UTC)

Proposal has been edited to discourage mixing of man_made=utility_pole and power=pole. Any replacement will have to be discussed later Fanfouer (talk) 18:51, 4 June 2021 (UTC)

Electric meters

Resolved: A new tag will be needed for standalone electric meters or use existing man_made=street_cabinet

Also in rural areas, being able to confirm one is standing next to the correct electric meter could be a lifesaver in areas with no other landmarks.

Currently one must fake electric meters with street cabinet=*. City slickers just don't understand how important (serial numbered) electric meters are as landmarks. Jidanni (talk) 07:37, 24 March 2021 (UTC)

If electric meter is not street_cabinet=* - then please do not enter it this way! Feel free to invent a new tag if you need it Mateusz Konieczny (talk) 08:55, 24 March 2021 (UTC)

I second Mateusz comment, a new tag should be defined for meters (why not power=meter as a dedicated power device) and then it could be combined to man_made=utility_pole if installed on a pole. Fanfouer (talk) 23:04, 25 March 2021 (UTC)

I third Mateusz comment! --Nospam2005 (talk) 10:17, 15 June 2021 (UTC)